In today’s episode, we’re joined by Adrian Vogt and John Arnold from MTX Group. Through the episode, we discuss the rise of managed services across the Salesforce ecosystem. We cover who can benefit from managed services, what companies should be aware of, and why internal teams should not fear external managed service partners.
You can find both Adrian and John on their LinkedIn pages:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrianvogt/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnaarnold/
We hope you enjoy the episode!
Ben:
Adrian, John, welcome to the show. So it’s quite rare actually we have consulting partners as a group, two people from one consulting partner, we’ve had a few people from different partners over the years, but I wanted to get you guys on the show to talk about the current climate and what we’re seeing, and historically we’ve seen a lot of implementations, that’s typically been the business model of a lot of partners, but the market’s a bit tighter than we’ve seen over the last couple of years. You know, there’s a lot has happened since COVID and the global economy and things like that. So what I wanted to understand is from the partner perspective, what you’re seeing at the moment from, you know, demand from customers aside from implementations. And then we’ll get into some further discussion around some of the services that you offer and why they’re taking off in the market. So maybe, John, with yourself, in the current climate, what are you seeing as demand? Aside from just your standard implementation services.
John Arnold:
Yeah, so it’s kind of a combination of things. So there’s still project work going on. People that are in the Salesforce ecosystem, but where you see legacy equipment coming, services coming to market. So particularly of late a lot of Microsoft, Silverlight, that kind of stuff, which has gone end of life, end of sale, end of support. So organizations have got no choice but to move. There’s a whole wrap of questions comes around it, wanting to know about the operating costs and how do they support it, and what kind of ways can they consume stuff like that? And then the other piece related is, less about tech these days and more about business outcomes. How do we get better operating efficiencies? How do we deliver a better service? If you can’t nail that part, then not a whole lot seems to happen.
Ben:
So have you, you said there obviously are still projects around, which is great to hear. Like, you know, I think if you speak to some job seekers in the market, they kind of feel that there aren’t lots of new initiatives taking shape. But are you seeing also a shift in how customers, especially if we focus in on Salesforce, are looking to maintain what they have or squeeze the juice, I guess, from their investments?
John Arnold:
Yeah, it’s a kind of a combination of things. So I think there were organizations that got into Salesforce pretty quickly and then did a bunch of stuff. And, you know, perhaps wasn’t fully optimized or it wasn’t fully documented or fully aligned to, you know, what a future state should be. It’s replicate or make a slight tweak on the way through. You know, kind of operated velocity is maybe the best way to describe it. And, you know, as things have settled down a little and also, you know, people are looking more at costs and other things. It is, you know, is this actually being done right? Has it been optimized? And it’s probably also overlaid with, you know, whoever did the implementation, whether it was in-house or a partner are long gone, they’re off to the next thing. And, you know, there’s a crew that’s in operate mode trying to work out “how the hell does this thing work? And is it doing what, you know, it’s doing some things that perhaps we hadn’t appreciated” or “there was a seasonal update that’s happened and it seems to have broken something. What’s going on?” So it’s that kind of stuff. So it kind of reflects the market in general. I think there’s this tension between, you know, there’s a cadre out there that love doing new and exciting stuff. And, you know, here’s the latest functionality and, you know, there’s all kinds of great stuff I can implement. And then, you know, there’s those that are more in the operate mode who are trying to stabilize things, get it better enabled to business, bed things in so they can build other services on top. And, you know, clean up crew, call it what you want. You know, it’s like, we’ve got to get this thing operationalized. It’s now mission critical. We’ve built stuff on top of it. We need to have a solid bedrock and an understanding of how things work. It needs to be documented. When we go to touch it, we understand impact, rather than let’s change it and see what breaks, see who yells. I think those days have come to an end.
Ben:
Yep, makes sense. And Adrian, I know this is an area that you’ve been focused on for a while and we’re starting to hear a lot more about managed services, which is going to be quite a topic for today because it’s an interesting one. I know managed services have been around for a long time. Since the beginning of IT, I guess there’s been someone supporting it, but it’s only from my experience or my observations in the market, it’s only been more recently that all of the partners have started talking about managed services. And I wondered if that was because there weren’t as many projects around or new kind of initiatives, I thought maybe that’s a way of covering revenue and bringing in new opportunities for companies. But it does seem to be an avenue that a lot of companies are getting benefit from. So what kind of companies do need some sort of managed services support or should be considering some sort of managed services support from a partner?
Adrian Vogt:
I think the thing with managed services and why there’s been growth and what we have experienced over the last couple of years was due to COVID, there was quite a lot of uncertainty in the market about what was happening, where companies were going. But through having a managed service, it allowed them to continue to innovate, but on a smaller scale. So, you know, a managed service need not necessarily just be about break-fix support. You know, traditionally, I think that that’s the view of a managed service is whoever’s available in the partner will just pick it up and run with it. Whereas partners in general are now looking, how can we really streamline the managed service practice to actually be able to help with innovation, we could be looking at smaller, micro projects rather than the big bang implementation, which was kind of what kept a lot of partners going over the years of COVID. And then through showing the success of that has allowed companies to just continue innovating, because with every implementation. at the end of it, and we’re currently dealing with a customer where they’re post implementation, it’s now at a UAT phase, they were looking more at a waterfall than an agile based implementation. And now they’ve got a backlog already of stuff to fix. So we’ve already got a backlog to start looking at from the managed service perspective of, you know, we’ve assessed it, we’ve prioritized So we can start giving, we can start adding value like almost immediately. And it’s not necessarily just bug fixing. As for what organizations benefit most, look small to medium because of the high cost of having a highly skilled team. You know, a managed services team, well, we’ve got experts in all clouds, across integration, and we’ve got Developers on that can work on websites, not just on experience cloud. So you could tap into this whole network of people, you know, rather than having to then recruit, you know, a larger team.
Ben:
Yeah, which I think is very interesting for people right now with the cost of Salesforce salaries going up. I think they’ve stabilised now, but if you look over the last couple of years, it was increase after increase and that must have been challenging for a lot of those smaller and medium partners. One thing you mentioned there is, historically, anyone picking up the support when they weren’t on a project. That’s something I’ve seen as well in the past, and even for pre-sales, as an example, pre-sales would be done by the consultants or the Architects that weren’t engaged on a project and that’s becoming like a function of its own within partners as well, but how have you seen managed services not just be a revenue increaser for you as a business, but also give you the ability to upskill new employees?
Adrian Vogt:
Yeah, good question. We are not only upskilling our own people, right? That’s critical. A team would come, we had an associate program and we had a lot of the guys start off through working with the managed service team. But most of our team have an average of, five years experience across multiple industries, multiple accounts. So why not leverage that experience? And that helps formulate the associates who then we can kind of rapidly move some of these graduates through into project roles because they’ve stayed with the team. Now we’ve also helped clients. We’ve got an example of a person who was kind of brought in because of the demand as an internal System Administrator. We helped her and she became certified because she was leveraging the experience of the team. They were then guiding her through questions and answers. So it becomes a synergy. We would prefer that people aren’t seeing… we’re not seen as a vendor supplier that we’re actually viewed as kind of becoming part of the team. If you’ve got an idea, what better way to run that idea past than a group of experienced people?
Ben:
You mentioned that around companies having existing teams. And I know that’s obviously one of the benefits of, like you mentioned before, like not necessarily needing a big team if you’ve got a partner that can support you and kind of plug in where you have gaps. But I’ve historically always thought of managed services being the solution for a company that doesn’t have an internal team. But you actually, you’ve raised a good point there. It actually, you know, an internal Salesforce team shouldn’t necessarily fear a managed service provider if they’re seen as a partner rather than someone that’s looking to replace them. Have you seen that as well?
Adrian Vogt:
Absolutely. And I think going back to the example of the Department of Education, we complement each other. If you looked at all the skills that we could offer, I mean, the salary bills would be, you know, in the hundreds of thousands in contrast, you could tap into specialized skills, but we still need a person in the business that can work with us. Now one of the big things, especially now with the Salesforce recruitment market, is people are leaving companies because they’re doing mundane. It’s not interesting. It’s not great stuff. So why not have our team working on the back end and then allowing the customer’s team to actually go and work with the business on initiatives. Actually, and then also come up with design. We’ll then work through the design and we’ll go, “okay, maybe tweak that, tweak this”. So we’re actually working as a team and they… then thinking, well, actually, I’m enjoying this. I’m learning, I’m working with the business, I’m adding value, whereas traditionally, a lot of Salesforce Admins and some Developers don’t feel like they’re adding value, they just feel that they’re doing business as usual.
Ben:
John, there will be companies out there that have never entered into an agreement like this. They’ve never considered managed services. Maybe that’s because they’ve never really needed any support. They’ve had a fairly vanilla Salesforce environment that they’ve then just done some work on and now they find themselves in the position they need someone looking after that long term or they might have lost someone in their team, need to plug a gap or even just, you know, bigger volume of work coming through and need to plug some holes. What should a customer have in mind when they are considering a managed service agreement? Are there any things to watch out for, any red flags?
John Arnold:
Yeah, look, there’s a combination of things, right? So, you know, I think you touched on it earlier. “Hey, I’ve got some pre-sales consultants not doing any kind of big project work at the moment. I’ll throw them on this until something comes along”. So, you know, the typical way some organizations sell a managed service is you get a block of hours, you know, we’ll give you 40 hours a month or whatever it happens to be, and you know, use it or lose it, and it’s whoever’s available at the time will pick up your request and kind of process it. And you know that works to a level but it’s not ideal and you know particularly if you interact with organizations out of a bunch of them, you’re just a number in the queue and you actually burn a chunk of time going “here’s who I am this is my environment, this is where it’s up to”, if you ever you know probably a bit like the old days of the Microsoft managed support services. You know, you spend half your time authenticating yourself, running through a bunch of pretty basic questions before they’ll actually get into the detail with you. That’s not ideal when you’re under pressure and you need to make things happen. So you want to really dig into, you know, how does that block work? You know, does it have flexibility? Because this month there might not be a lot on. Next month there’s a seasonal update. There’s a lot of stuff that needs QAing and checking. So those kind of flexes and spikes or “we’re about to launch a campaign, we need to fix a few things before we do it”. So it’s that kind of stuff. Also, related to that, it is, the people that I’m going to be accessing, how well do they know my environment? Are they able to give me insightful advice or is it just kind of the vanilla stuff? So, do you have dedicated or name resources? Because if you’re going to be working with them over 12 months, you know, they should get to know your business pretty well. And towards the end, you should be able to have good shorthand conversations. “Hey, that thing we were talking about, it’s not quite right. Can you look at it and do something?” And if I’m a new guy, I don’t understand a word you just told me. So it’s kind of working through that. And you know, my suggestion is if you’re looking at one, there’s quite a few options out there. So you want to interview and get kind of… understand how they adjust to your needs. It’s not a, you know, “here’s my t-shirt, my managed service, one size fits all sign here and you get what you get”. You know, if you’re a small, medium, large enterprise, you have slightly different needs. And you know, if you’re a charity versus a financial services organization, you know, the kind of support you’re needing is probably very different as well. So, you know, how well does the organization adapt to give me the kind of things I need? You know, that’s kind of really important. The other one, you know, anybody that’s dealt, you know, I’ve been in industry 30 years, you know, you’ve seen the, particularly with the big end of town, sometimes the crew that comes in and gives you the pitch and, you know, tells a very impressive story and then, you know, they’ve taken you out to lunch and wined and dined you and all that good stuff. And then the crew that shows up to do delivery and it’s like, “I don’t recognize anyone, where’d these guys come from?” So making sure that you actually understand the crew that you’re getting. Have I met them? Are they the people that were in the pitch so they know what they’ve signed up for? And that’s kind of pretty important, I think. And then just understanding the contractual arrangement. It should be pay as you go. So monthly, so you can smooth out the expenses. Finance always love that. But also, you know, what’s the exit clauses look like? You know, if this relationship’s not working, you know, is it a handcuff to the waist for the next three years, or is there a way to tweak this thing? You know, whether it’s divorce and we both shut up shop and leave town, or, you know, how do we have a sit down and thrash out a better way of operating. You know, as we’ve developed a better understanding of our changing needs, you know, how flexible are you going to be to help us do that? I think all that kind of stuff’s important because, you know, whilst you can save money implementing a managed service, it’s got to deliver real value. And it’s not just to you, you know, the CFO and IT and the business need to look at it and go, this is something that’s really helping us with our business agility and getting outcomes.
Ben:
Yeah, that’s an interesting point on the contractual agreement, like is there a standard Term on a managed service agreement for anyone that’s never entered into one. Is it like a 12-month thing or?
John Arnold:
No, I think there’s as many options as there are companies out there. So 12 months is probably a normal kind of arrangement, but, you know, some organizations want to do a bit more like a try and buy, you know, so there’s a range of things and it’s really about negotiating or finding an organization that has flexible models that suit your need. Some partners maybe really only do financial services work. So trying to get them to help you with your charity because they’ve got some spare guys in the cupboard, may not be a good fit for you medium long-term.
Ben:
And we’ve touched on cost saving, but in the current climate where price and obviously savings are high on the agenda, have you seen companies benefiting from looking at things like a license reviews or, you know, the, what’s the term that the org audit, the Trojan horse, some call it. Like, are you seeing those kinds of services actually paying off in terms of like, not just value add, but cost savings and benefits.
John Arnold:
Yeah, there’s kind of a combination. So I guess in what was the mad sprawl over the last couple of years where licenses were bought for all kinds of things, somebody may have left the organization and that wasn’t really the strategy anymore. We’re now doing more in this cloud instead or that team’s downsized or whatever it happens to be. But. you know, when these bills are coming in monthly, they aren’t necessarily well understood. So getting in there and looking at it and going, is it optimized, right-sized? You know, there may have even been a new Salesforce product that, you know, if you combine these two, you actually get a saving anyway. So I know that we’ve, in the last little while, clients have funded the managed service out of the savings from licensing. You know, you can’t promise that for everybody, but certainly making sure that you’ve optimized your licensing and you’ve done an audit, so if finance asks the question, you can go, no, we’ve got good utilization rates. It gives them the confidence to look at when you need to put your hand out for other money, they see that you’re spending it wisely. But also… I like to use analogies. If you’ve got a managed service that’s doing regular updates and tweaking your services and streamlining it, your instance is running pretty good. If you’ve banged it in and no one’s touched it for a couple of years, now it’s time to, it’s going to break in the next update or the business needs something done. And suddenly there’s this huge backlog of things you need to fix beforehand. And now you’ve got to shell out for a large project to make it happen, those kind of pickups in the cash flow, finance groups generally don’t like that a lot. And so you can kind of avoid that kind of work, which is really good. You know, the ability to access specialist skills in a cost effective way. You have it baked into a predictable every month. You know, we’ve got 40 hours this month. We’re going to use experienced cloud guys rather than service cloud or whatever it happens to be. That’s kind of a good thing. And, you know, it’s not just the cost of the environment. It’s also, if this platform went down because of errors, there was poor change management or whatever, what’s the cost to the business, you know, unable to transact for four hours or, you know, whatever it happens to be, you know, there’s significant costs like that. And, you know, some organizations have had a bunch of issues in the past, put a managed service in and they go, right, you know, we’ve had, you know, we had five or six instances last year, this year, we’ve had none or whatever it is. You do the maths on that. And it’s like, there’s a significant saving right there as well as just a confidence thing in the business in general and I guess the other piece is you know if you can lower your turnover in staff because they’re more focused on things they enjoy doing a business benefit, you know, sorry Ben but you can lower your recruitment costs you know budgeting because you’re not having to get a new guy every six months that kind of thing which is you know it adds up over time
Ben:
Yeah, yeah, it sure does. And that’s definitely been a challenge we’ve seen across the ecosystem over the last few years is that retention piece is difficult. If we look at that retention piece, like, I know, obviously, that can be a challenge for all partners there, right? Are you finding that when like, is that a difficult thing on the partner side as well when people are doing managed services?
John Arnold:
Yeah, it can be because there’s probably three lots of people, right? There’s those that love building stuff and they’re generally… don’t love doing the documentation. So, you know, we’ve all seen it, great project. And then the big client goes, so where’s the documentation for how this thing was built and use it? And it never gets completed to spec, right? It is the guys that are really good at building. You know, I’m sure there’s unicorns out there, but they’re hard to find. So, you know, there’s individuals that love building, but there’s also people out there that love that whole operate mode and, you know, betting stuff down and writing stuff up. You know, I’m married to a lawyer who likes to dot. and cross-tees which I admit is not my strength. So being able to segment work that way and get the right people doing the right stuff and you know being honest I think most people in clients, they’re more from the first group than the second group so having a mob that comes in that likes doing that kind of work you know we’ve got a bunch of people like that and you know also it’s all the wraparound you know the change management piece and the you know the, you know, there’s a bunch of people that love doing all that stuff and prepping it and getting business sign-offs on stuff. You know, it’s necessary work and you know, the right people doing it’s critical to success. So, you know, having people do that work for you is really good. And then the third mob is, you know, the bit I think Adrian talked to, there’s people that want to get in the industry anyway they can and often they’ll get in that second group, but they want to see progression in career path. So, you know, we have the ability here to mentor them and take them on a journey until they get to the skillsets they need. And then either we can hire them as professional consultants. You know, occasionally a client goes, look, we’ll have that guy now, if you don’t mind handing him over. So you do, you know, it’s a career path thing. So, you know, part of the commitment, I think our management’s made is that whole, you know, development of skills and people you know depending what you see is what going to be a 20,000 people person skill shortage or whatever so you know we can get people in a cost-effective way because they can see a real career path you know as I think particularly in some small organizations they’re like “come in we’re doing a really exciting project be great for your career” and it is for six months and then it’s done and then the operational noise starts which they don’t enjoy and they’re now looking for the next sugar hit and that business can’t do it right then and there. You know, maybe they got one in three, six months once it’s bedded down. But now they lose the guy with all the IP because they didn’t stick around. And this is a way to kind of smooth that out and perhaps even keep that person.
Ben:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And Adrian, we’ve talked on some of the internal employees at customer bases, not being necessarily like massively enjoying some of the more mundane kind of keep lights on, you know, the, I guess, general housekeeping of a Salesforce org. And I find that interesting because, you know, that’s definitely right in some of the conversations I have with candidates, like, you know, they don’t want to. to just be doing the basic stuff. They’re excited by the transformational stuff. Whether they’re using a partner for managed services or not, they have an internal team. What are some of those real core housekeeping tasks that every customer should be considering if they have a Salesforce org?
Adrian:
One of the things that I found with I went out to meet and one of our partners offshore the recent the team of surely to make them and I was amazed at the quality of some of the resources and I’m like, you know and a common misconception is what if you know, that’s good. Why are you working in support? The reason I know one of these guys, he’s a real gun. And he was like, because it’s interesting because I’m dealing with multiple clients with different problems. You know, I’m not just delivering one set of requirements. I’m working with multiple people. And things that kind of add the value just to the break fixes, seasonal updates. How many Salesforce orgs break after the mandatory Salesforce seasonal update? We’ll take a sandbox. We’ll do a full regression test. We manage sandboxes. We’ve got DevOps tools, so GitLab, GitHub. Use those. Use those tools. So we do automatic regression testing. We do an org review, especially if, you know, to the point earlier, especially if we take over from another partner who’s left, we’ll go and look at the code. Code coverage is something that constantly prevents, you know, smooth deployments to production. And if you’re working on a deployment a month, you want to make sure that you don’t have hiccups every month. So we’ll fix the code coverage. We help, why not leverage the experience of the team and use us to assess your backlog, t-shirt size it for you, help you prioritize it so that you’re getting the best value. You know, we’re not just delivering, you know, to he who shouts loudest, we’re delivering actual business outcomes and business value. And then for it to be successful, have a consistent, you know, process, operations process, define that process with the customer before you actually start support so that everybody knows who’s doing what and how and when and what tools you’re going to use to deliver it. So that you’re not, someone’s not going, “oh, what do I do, how do I do it? When do they deploy? How do we lock tickets?” Define the business process or the engagement process and ensure that it works for you, to the point of interview the partner before. Talk about how we’re going to engage and how that’s going to happen and provide them with a clear process.
John Arnold:
Yeah, related to that, one thing I’ve seen with clients that do this well versus not, is you often see where the Salesforce or the IT team in the business, there’s a little bit of conflict and frustration with prioritization of needs and whatever. But if you have sat down with the business and mapped out the requirements, often there’s dependencies. We can’t build this or we can’t do this till that’s done. but that’s not necessarily well articulated. So the business doesn’t appreciate that or hasn’t been educated enough. So if you sit down with that roadmap and you have your running list of requirements and they’re staging, “we’ve got to do group A before we can touch B because of these dependencies”. And if you get those kinds of comms going, it can make a huge difference to your work environment, everybody is more cooperative and gets on because they have a better understanding of, you know, the way things need to happen versus, you know, “hey, I’m a guy, I want my outcome and I’ve been waiting six months, what the hell’s going on?” You know, so the noisiest person gets looked after, but they don’t necessarily understand the impact they’re having. And so mapping that stuff out and obviously anyone that’s doing good managed service, that’s essential if you want to maintain a long-term client. But that’s a skill set that I think a lot of organizations can really benefit from and internalize.
Ben:
It’s interesting, just on some of the things you’ve mentioned there, like, I’ve spoken to a couple of clients recently that are looking at this whole like service management and support model at the moment. And all of the things you’ve said are aligned to what they’ve said around documentation about like, how do you actually document a requirement, like a change requirement or a support ticket? Like what, what does that look like? And they’re, they’re looking at the world of like ITIL and how that potentially comes into the Salesforce space. Like, and that’s never really been something we’ve heard about before. Like, I’ve never heard anyone really mention ITIL and Salesforce together until recently. Do you see that evolving? Like, do you see more and more of that kind of structured service management coming into the Salesforce space?
Adrian:
Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the things that we’ve actually leveraged Salesforce Service Cloud, which is out of the box an industry leader in case management. So we’ve used and we provide, I would say, community license, but I’m moving with the times. We give them an experience cloud license so they can log on to the portal. We give them dashboards. They can see hours used. They can see tickets, which goes through the Salesforce service client case management process. We leveraged the automations that come with the service cloud. So it’s absolutely, I think for you to be running an efficient service, why not utilize the tools and make, because, you know, the days of emailing support at, you know, somebody.com and then finding out like, you know, I logged a P1 ticket with you about three days ago. Not earlier, would it? No, possibly. No one’s monitoring the sandbox. So why not use the tools? And we’ve, we definitely, as a Salesforce partner, we definitely leveraging that, you know.
John Arnold:
Even simple stuff. I mean, P1s people know about and tend to yell, but hey, you know, this form’s not right. Can you adjust it or whatever? They’ve logged a ticket and it got fixed a week ago, but because no one told them, they hadn’t known and they’re sitting around kind of frustrated and for no good reason. So having an ability to kind of cue and manage and stage will say, yep. and we’re going to do that, but we’re about to roll out a new jot form or whatever it happens to be and then this will get done, that staging thing. So you got to wait two weeks, but you’re gonna have a way better form or we’re gonna eliminate this downstream manual step. Then the users are like, “oh, that’s good. I’ll wait three weeks, because that sounds really good”. You can totally drive a different thing. And I came from a telco world where idle is everything. And I was kind of surprised at the immaturity here. But particularly in the current climate, there’s a real demand from the business for outcomes and you’ve really got to get idle aligned if you want to thrive, I think.
Ben:
Yeah, interesting.
Adrian:
Yeah. And we provide a level of governance as well. So, you know, we’ve got someone you can talk to. We call them a customer success manager, not because we don’t want to call them project managers, but we actually want them to not just be about ensuring tickets are processed within SLAs, but the customer success manager is there to build that relationship to ensure that this is working for them through having this level of governance, we have weekly cadence meetings, which you can talk about tickets that are open. And it’s a forum. So it then allows the customer to feel that, okay, we are in this together, and I can start working with the business because now I’ve got confirmation from you that this will be ready to be deployed in the next production deployment. So it really does help them plan with change management.
Ben:
It’s really interesting to hear all of this because it’s not the sexiest of topics, right, managed services, but it’s definitely the, you know, with the growth of the Salesforce ecosystem, the scale and, you know, the importance now that companies have put on Salesforce to run their businesses, like it’s key, right, and we’re seeing more and more of this. So if anyone is listening and wants to ask any questions around what you guys do or just the function of a managed services team, where’s the best place to find you?
Adrian:
We’ve got it on the MTX Australia website, we do have a managed services link that you can go to, it will create a case and then Salesforce will then notify us and we can contact you or else connect with us on LinkedIn.
Ben:
Awesome, well thank you so much, thank you for your time and all the best
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